Kuk a question concerning allowable devices - according to regulation juglines/noodles must be attended once every 24 hours? If left over that time are they then illegal devices? How can ODWC possibly enforce the law here on time limits? In other words it is an honor system unless a game warden is clued in to unattended devices -- and starts a clock -

Its time to do a better review on such gear - maybe for those who want to use such stuff a yearly fee should be applied with license number also included on the device.

When there are too many placed in a confined area they become an obstacle to other fishermen, in other words the GEAR is remote device taking fish, and preventing fishing near where they are placed and left unattended, as well as an artificial obstacle when a big fish swims into one on hanging down, that is hooked on another anglers line -

The regs state no such devices within 1000 feet of a federal tailrace - but in reality a few such areas need 1 mile restrictions to this gear.

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Those who would give up constitutional freedoms to elected officials in exchange for a false sense of security, deserve neither freedom or security.

A fair question Tony.  I myself am not in favor of regulating any of our gears differently (I want all regs to be equal among all gear types for simplicity/consistency).  But it is a debate that is fair for discussion among anglers as well as biologists.  I will try to float your question at our next staff meeting and see where it goes. 

I agree that noodles/jugs/etc can be a messy gear which can have a negative impact on other anglers (especially when not checked every 24 hrs), but I don't think ODWC has the right to subject one angling group to an additional fee as you suggest when their license is covered in the general fishing license cost.  It is not like our old trout stamp where the money was used to purchase the trout being stocked.  I don't think it would be fair or right for the state to make one angling group pay more to fish than another angling group just because they use a jug instead of a rod and reel.

The situation I reference is unique - when the water is flowing , not such a problem, but when its not, it looks like a rowing slalom course there - you literally can't fish between the spaced noodles - which are placed early morning then checked late evening. If you do decide to fish and hang a strong running fish likely you are going to get in the gear --

Its a popular bank fishing spot and really becomes a private fishing ground and the number allowed by law then takes up the few pools that are fishable with no water running.

This style of fishing started down there about two years ago and is getting worse and worse, and its really limited to only one family, that live adjacent to the pools - the amount of catfish they are removing is staggering, and I would question the disposition/possession of those fish. Additionally Striped Bass are being hauled out by the same methods -

The regs state no such devices within 1000 feet of a federal dam but this distance is just outside that range - I've spoken to Carlos Gomez a couple of times and he is checking them - but so far they are within the law albiet  putting them where it should not be allowed.

I have nothing against juglining in open lakes - or mainstem navigable rivers.

Anecdotal though this observation may be,  the abundance of both fish normally in this pool has crashed.

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Those who would give up constitutional freedoms to elected officials in exchange for a false sense of security, deserve neither freedom or security.

On Monday Dec 30, 2013 at 11:08 AM KukODWC said ...

A fair question Tony.  I myself am not in favor of regulating any of our gears differently (I want all regs to be equal among all gear types for simplicity/consistency).  But it is a debate that is fair for discussion among anglers as well as biologists.  I will try to float your question at our next staff meeting and see where it goes. 

I agree that noodles/jugs/etc can be a messy gear which can have a negative impact on other anglers (especially when not checked every 24 hrs), but I don't think ODWC has the right to subject one angling group to an additional fee as you suggest when their license is covered in the general fishing license cost.  It is not like our old trout stamp where the money was used to purchase the trout being stocked.  I don't think it would be fair or right for the state to make one angling group pay more to fish than another angling group just because they use a jug instead of a rod and reel.

As I read things gear is already regulated differently.  Rod and reel anglers are limited to 7 rods per person (no hook limit per line that I can find) while trotliners and jugliners are limited to 100 hooks.  For all regs to be fair and equal all should have the same hook limit and be present in the immediate vicinity to monitor the same.  This would level the field and give all equal catch opportunity, skill and knowledge excepted.

In the particular area Tony speaks of, the jugging picked up in earnest early last year. I won't digress into the trotlines.
The juggers were doing quite well from what I heard and saw, but I've been told that they are now having a tougher time.
I can definitely say that I'm having a tougher time finding larger fish, but perhaps that's a simple sign of my lagging skills!

I believe snagging is prohibited from the dam all the way downstream to Sand Springs.
The reasoning?
Perhaps the same reasoning should apply to all types of harvesting that utilizes large numbers of hooks placed in such limited waters?

These juggers are good at their endeavors and well within their rights, although I find their respect for the resource to be suspect.
They certainly have the best holes covered at times. I've reeled in more than one noodle unintentionally.

Hoping to not get shot!
Danny

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http://drw.50webs.com/fishing/fishing.html

On Monday Dec 30, 2013 at 5:51 PM Pokinaround said ...

As I read things gear is already regulated differently.  Rod and reel anglers are limited to 7 rods per person (no hook limit per line that I can find) while trotliners and jugliners are limited to 100 hooks.  For all regs to be fair and equal all should have the same hook limit and be present in the immediate vicinity to monitor the same.  This would level the field and give all equal catch opportunity, skill and knowledge excepted.

When I stated that I personally favor regulating all gears equally, I should have been more clear.  I do not think that any species of fish should have a different / specific length or bag limit based upon a certain angling gear...all limits should be equal.  And I frequently argue this among ODWC biologists at our regulation meetings (sometimes successfully, sometimes not).  My reasoning is that there is no difference between a harvested (dead) blue catfish that was caught on a jug, a rod and reel, a trotline, or by hand...the fish is equally dead in all cases.  Why should more complicated and confusing regulations be created for each angling gear when we manage a fish species the same regardless of how the fish is harvested? 

So yes, for historical and social reasons some of the regs differ among gear types as you point out regarding number of hooks versus number of rods allowed.  But the bag and size limits are the same and that is how it should be. 

Thank you for bringing this up at your meetings Kirk.

Seems all regulations have to be made for 1% of fishermen. I agree whole heartedly with keep regs simple.

20 juglines per licensed angler, with three licensed anglers in a household in this particular instance, basically makes this area a PRIVATE playground - I did not mention trotlines by the same bunch which are NOT legal because they are set in water less than three feet deep, when the river is not flowing 

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Those who would give up constitutional freedoms to elected officials in exchange for a false sense of security, deserve neither freedom or security.

Hoping to not get shot!
Danny

Yea someone cracked a round close by Saturday - had us both looking for source.

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Those who would give up constitutional freedoms to elected officials in exchange for a false sense of security, deserve neither freedom or security.

I find this thread depressing even though I've never fished the stretch of water you all are referring to.  The general consensus of Tony and Danny is one family has basically minimized the opportunity to catch fish that were in abundance in years past.  All by being 100% legal.  Morally challenged in my opinion, but legal.  "Working as designed".  

No body of water, in my opinion, provides the fisherman in the Tulsa area better bankside fishing than the Arkansas River.  Yet, we have regulations that permit, again in my opinion, unreasonable harvesting to meat hoarders. I'm not saying the river itself should be catch and release only, that would be unreasonable.  But a jug liner, putting out those jugs that are in limited pools, it blows my mind thats even allowed.  Being one who fishes artificials, and assuming I go on a 2 hour fishing excursion (long for me), how much time is my lure in the water? 20 minutes?  Less?  Where a juggliner's hooks can be in the water 8 hours? 12? 20?  

Too often I hear, from people who don't fish often, "There ain't no fish in that river".  What draws more people to the sport, catching or eating?

If I remember correctly, Rod-and-reel fisherman are limited to 7 rods, three hooks per line (a treble hook counts as one hook).  I believe a lure counts as one hook, even if it's a crankbait with two or more trebles hanging from it.

I do believe there is a clause in the book about a limit of two rods / person for the first thousand feet below any Federal or GRDA dam.  Also, the snagging restriction is from Keystone Dam to the I-44 bridge.

I used to bank-fish from this area years ago, but never caught much.  I have launched my kayak there a few times when the water wasn't running in the past year.  I never saw any jugs.  The only fish I caught were a few Sandies and some Spotted Bass.

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   Perception Search 13

Kuk it would seem to me that unattended devices are pretty indiscriminate - I understand where you are coming from on the creel aspect. The DEVICE itself becomes a de facto angler fishing 24/7 taking up fishing SPACE.

So theoretically Joe the jugger finds a sweet spot and by law he is able to float his 20 boats in place and fish 24/7 -365 days a year. Show up once in 24 hours and take his 30" blue , and 14 unders. 

Do you really think he is putting back five fish over 30"? What about summertime mortality? Twenty jugs in poor O2 in a lake in theory could have 20 over thirty inch catfish hanging dead on them, and given 24 hours spoiled for eating -  even at that thought,  ODWC does not have enough eyes to enforce the regulation.

So what else COULD ODWC do to afford some protection to the class of fish? You need to re-think this whole aspect of allowable UNATTENDED devices

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Those who would give up constitutional freedoms to elected officials in exchange for a false sense of security, deserve neither freedom or security.

Tony, a couple of points to answer your questions and concerns:  We have looked at delayed mortality of juglining (OSU did a study and we have looked at other available literature) and there is no evidence of significant delayed hooking mortality from jugs (even on blues larger than 30 inches).  The OSU study included a seasonal treatment where water temperature was recorded and even high summer water temps did not induce significant mortality for blues hooked on jugs for up to 24 hours.  So we did actually fund some research to directly address this concern and found no real issue, contrary to the presumptions of many anglers and some biologists prior to the study.

Secondly, I authored a paper in the SEAFWA Proceedings in 2008 that dealt with catfish anglers in Oklahoma and their harvest trends (by many variables including angling gear).  We found that very few angler regardless of gear type EVER catch or keep a daily bag limit (just 2.5% of rod and reel anglers and only 1.2% of jug anglers reached the daily creel limit).  This was based on a survey of over 4000 catfish anglers across the entire state.  Also, the percentage of anglers harvesting BCF over 30" was about equal between jugs and rod & reel (6.5% vs 5.8%).  Both low percentages of the total catfish angling population.  So we did not see any disproportionate harvest by jugs, either numbers of fish or large individuals.

Here is a link to that journal publication:
http://seafwa.org//resource/dynamic/private/PDF/Kuklinski-149-153.pdf

I understand your concern and frustration, but don't fall into the trap of presuming juglines are doing more damage to a catfish population than any other gear type.  Some of us had that feeling prior to our study and found out otherwise based on some really good data.  And I do not necessarily disagree with your concerns about the specific area where you have issues with jugs being deployed, but there probably is not a lot of BIOLOGICAL support for regulation change.  The basis for reg change may have to be based in safety, social acceptability, and/or difficulties in enforcement. 

Harvest trends were based on what I would think an overall picture, snapshot of the fishery averaged - I would think in a limited dead end where bluecat are drawn to due to forage and water quality, that equation might get skewed -- but yes I would agree not much in the way of biological support for changes in regs.

The only thing that should really be looked at is allowable gear in proximity to a dam base, and possibly total number of devices allowed per boat. 

You know the area I am talking about and its not unlike a small municipal lake when the water isn't running, its an easy place to target large fish in fall/winter because they are(were) there in high numbers - unlike a lake which they are scattered in - and really its not so much the fish I am concerned about - its three individual anglers doing what the regs allow  - don't know any other way to limit these guys except ask for a look at regulation change.

I become my own enemy when I fish with a select few who I know hold this fishery in high regard - and we are observed catching really big blues and Striped Bass. Then we get trumped out of fishing there because of the devices and number legally allowed.

Thank you sir!!!

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Those who would give up constitutional freedoms to elected officials in exchange for a false sense of security, deserve neither freedom or security.