Hybrid stocking #'s and quotes from message board
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Posted on Friday Jul 19, 2013 at 7:31 AM  
For the last year I've been devoted to learning more about fishing and become an educated angler. I joined OSBA and had the privilege of hearing an ODWC officer speak a few months ago. I had no idea of all the good work that they do. Reading Kurts postings here continues to inform me of their efforts. I'm completely impressed with what the ODWC does. It's a government agency that I'm glad my tax dollars flow to, because they care about each dollar and how it's spent for productivity. Good job ODWC!
The more you practice, the luckier you get.
Posted on Friday Jul 19, 2013 at 8:32 PM  
Just want to say if you fished for stripers on the Arkansas River in the 70s or 80s there were big fish. If you fished in the Lower Illinois back then, lots of fish and state records. If we can get back to that abundance; trophy striper fishing and Oklahoma striped bass fishing in general, will increase. We've been asking for improvement in striper and hybrid fishing for 5 years or more. There is progress: limit changes on striper and numbers and length limit changes on hybrids. Also research including reciprocal hybrids on Kaw, which as a side benefit, have helped fill the gap of a decreasing long term striped bass opportunity below Kaw. Also the Arkansas River Striped Bass study, thanks to Bill, Kurk, Tom and co-workers. I would like to see the management of ODWC put Striped bass and hybrid Striped bass fishing on a deserving scale. Grab the vision for opportunity and potential, by fully stocking suitable water for hybrids. Is supplemental striper stocking in Keystone a viable option? How about a hybrid/striper stamp? With respect to statewide stocking numbers, hybrids got the hind tit this year. If your favorite lake got blessed, I understand you feel different, but that doesn't change the aggregate numbers. If a problem is identified it is a half solved. ODWC is an entity capable of coming up with a long term hatchery solution. Why is harvest of spawning stripers allowed below Kaw and Zinc dam, when it should be obvious to anyone who has followed striped bass in this state for more than a decade, that excluding Texoma, there has been a downward Striped bass population trend. Today's striper fishing (excluding Texoma) does not compare with the 70's and 80's and what are the contributory factors other than the limits and fisherman skill? The tremendous reproduction at Texoma, is also benefited from limited upstream fishing pressure during the spawn unlike upstream Keystone and below Keystone. There have been questions asked on here about the striper population in Keystone; previous striper stocking in Keystone and the resulting success; summer kill and management of summer water release to avoid that; with no answers. This is the government we are talking about they deserve our full respect and vice-versa. Everything in the government not related to police or security, should be public information, as long as democracy is in force. Sorry if I offended anyone on my joking reply on the Florida LMB blog on message board. That was intended to be half serious, kind of like the cartoons in the newspaper, to make a point. The point being we have been told in the past on the board, especially before it crashed, when my handle was "Striper Tom", that ODWC fisheries was not prioritizing the striper/hybrid segment as high as several other species, due to their surveys. I made a point to the ridiculous about saugeye(survey says). They're stocked to control smaller sunfish(especially crappie) and hopefully assist in control of white perch, and provide fishing opportunity, too. Makes sense to stock them and there was an abundant stocking this year. Point being the striper/hybrid segment was outranked, if you will, by the limited numbers of fishermen who solely target saugeye; if one subscribes to the notion the biggest fishing segment, get the most return, as has been hinted by ODWC. No question there's more hybrid & striper fisherman in OK. In reality ODWC stocks for other reasons than popularity, when that decision is made. About Florida LMB stocking 1.7 million fingerlings stocked this year-- a 9 lb per fish average on two winning bass tournament stringers in Arbuckle Lake says something about fish genetics. Still ODWC is wavering upon what they've said in the past, about not stocking fish capable of reproducing in the same water. It is encouraging that trophy fish have increased perceived value, at least in black bass, and appear to be changing ODWC philosophy. Stocking of FLMB that are not experimental and cost effective, makes sense for genetic reasons, if value is placed on trophy potential. Something new in this state apparently. It makes sense, trophys in certain species increases interest and following. Nothing more impressive than a trophy striper!!! I closed my reply in that blog, again with a ridiculous statement. I presented the irony that surely something must taste wrong about hybrids (red meat?) to ODWC fishery management. My plea is with management, not Kurk, Bill , Tom and assistants. I humbly and gratefully thank you guys and gals specifically, for all your hard work, diligence, passion and wisdom put forth to promote Oklahoma Striper and hybrid opportunities, especially for bank and wading fisherman along the Arkansas. That is where my 20 lb striper and 12lb hybrid came from. Bank fishing puts opportunity on a level playing field, which is an American principal. By the way nothing more American than Striped bass, they fed the pilgrims.
Posted on Saturday Jul 20, 2013 at 1:03 PM  
Good read, NCAT. Very insightful and well written. Kinda makes me want to go chase a 40 lb striper!
Posted on Saturday Jul 20, 2013 at 5:07 PM  
You raised the bar with Danny's Tulsa World Gal! Seriously, below Eufaula, spring time, heavy line and smooth drag. Missed my chance to book Fred Mclintlock on the Cumberland with Swimbaits catching 50's. He retired. My bad.
Posted on Tuesday Jul 23, 2013 at 2:54 PM  
I wasn't going to chime in here - but I have heard so many different versions as to stocking , reasons why or why not - I was being totally facetious about stocking 500,000 smallmouth into Draper or Dirtybird its almost as laughable as stocking 500,000 FLMB fingerlings, but I guess ya gotta do something huh? That was what brought the showing the flag comment - neither aforementioned lakes in their current state of play are suitable to sunfish !!! Not enough cover or submergent plants due to turbidity - you have wide open bowls/sand/clay/ and some rocks - its a wonder any sunfish still exist. Maybe someone will catch a bass from there bigger than Gene's fish but I would be surprised - great Saugeye and Crappie fishing, big populations of inland silversides for forage !! Spend the money getting some water plants growing in these old lakes first, you are basically going to have to "waterform" old lakes with vegetation to have a suitable FLMB nursery What does it cost to raise 500,000 LMB fingerlings? Is it a best use of funds? I don't know, I have my suspicions, I think its great to improve LM genetics, but some lakes that were AGAIN stocked just wastes time, effort and money - where could this better be spent? Konawa has NEVER kicked out a FLMB over 11# and its been stocked with them since the eighties, in fact ODWC didn't even have the ability to test genetics until 1984 with electrophoresis. In 1974 OWDC stocked Lawtonka, Ellsworth, Duncan city with FLMB, NONE of which ever kicked out even ONE trophy largemouth !!! Same for Wes Watkins after LMBV and new stocking with PURE FLMB its never kicked out one DD fish !! Its primarily lack of habitat and fertility !! I could go on an on lake by lake some of which AGAIN were stocked with FLMB - whats the point? So you see my concern - NCat excellent post Weather and timing of Striper procurement is an iffy thing - even jar cultured eggs /sperm, if you have good eggs bad sperm or vice versa you can't do much about it. Striper Female Collection was TOO early this year as evidenced by late spawns and colder water, but where was a back-up plan? What it seemed to me is you plan for only a two week window - then its on to something else - Where else could you have acquired ready to spawn Striped Bass? Did you ask states further north(Later) for help or trade for Morones? My only question is what is your plan to oversee hatchery operations to have plans/ options to prevent failure? As I said anyone can raise FLMB or Northern LMB fingerlings - I've been there and done that in Texas, I've also been part of the first jar culture operations (in 1970-1973 time frame )for PRIVATE HSB production in the State of Texas - a labor intensive project no doubt, then careful watch must be kept on the transfer ponds to pull them before daisy chaining - I am in a roundabout way your boss, I and 730,000 other fishermen of this state buy the license and boat gas which pays your salary. Most folks just don't care a few of us avid fishermen do though -
Those who would give up constitutional freedoms to elected officials in exchange for a false sense of security, deserve neither freedom or security.
Posted on Tuesday Jul 23, 2013 at 6:02 PM  
How are hybrid fingerlings made? Do you pull a Striped bass with eggs out of the lake and get going with a willing White bass and the test tubes? (forgive my ignorance - I have NO idea how this works).
The more you practice, the luckier you get.
Posted on Tuesday Jul 23, 2013 at 6:22 PM  
Pretty much, Dan. I think, in a few of the threads on this subject, it was mentioned that ODWC shocked up gravid female Stripers from below Zink Dam, Kaw, maybe Keystone(?). They are shipped to the hatchery, the fish are stripped of eggs, and the eggs are fertilized with milt from Male Sand Bass.
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Posted on Tuesday Jul 23, 2013 at 9:29 PM  
Procurement of brood fish is usually at Zink/Keystone dam in Late March/ April time frame - where female Striped Bass are electrofished, the females are checked for egg stage and retained if they are close to ready, they and ready male white bass are transported to Byron, the females are injected with gonadotrophin a human hormone which stimulates faster completion, the female striper are manually stripped of eggs (a tough job!) into a container, where the eggs are mixed with milt from the males sandbass In the past we used a feather stirrer - don't really know what Byron does now - the fertilized eggs are tumbled in a McDonald jar till the eggs hatch, fry with egg sacs are transferred to next controlled holding container, thence to raceways and are taught to eat pellets, once trained they are transferred to outdoor grow out ponds(hopefully full of rotifers) to whatever size you can manage - small hybrids start to eat each other around 2" in size - big time cannibals and if you don't keep a close eye on em you will lose a lot of fish !! Kuk can likely fill in the blanks on more modern methods - this explanation is a little more simplistic than actual complete process -
Those who would give up constitutional freedoms to elected officials in exchange for a false sense of security, deserve neither freedom or security.
Posted on Tuesday Jul 23, 2013 at 9:53 PM  
Do the stripers survive that process?
Posted on Wednesday Jul 24, 2013 at 11:35 AM  
1.) ODWC spends MUCH more time collecting striped bass brooders than a small "two week window" as mentioned above. My crew spent 4 consecutive weeks collecting stripers for the hatchery. And there were others working on it before and after that. This is another attempt to minimize and belittle the honest efforts of ODWC staff. 2.) Striped bass females used for making hybrids do not survive. They are injected with hormones to optimize the egg production and get the timing just right...those fish could not go back into wild populations after the hormone injection even if they survived the egg stripping process.
Posted on Wednesday Jul 24, 2013 at 1:59 PM  
I for one prefer to let the fisheries guys manage the fishery. You all do awesome hard work, in less than ideal conditions, and i for one appreciate ALL you do for ALL the fish!!!! YOU are the experts.
Posted on Wednesday Jul 24, 2013 at 2:55 PM  
I've learned quite a bit reading these discussions. Just another one of the many things that make this board great. At the same time it's got me thinking not only what's best for the state but also what's best for me and the fishing I do.
Posted on Wednesday Jul 24, 2013 at 3:17 PM  
Sorry Kuk I was two weeks off - so you spent more than a month - an A for effort -
Those who would give up constitutional freedoms to elected officials in exchange for a false sense of security, deserve neither freedom or security.
Posted on Thursday Jul 25, 2013 at 10:13 AM  
Very good discussion on the board! It took two weeks to get there though! :-) We do work hard, but we love our jobs and we work hard for all of you fishermen and women in the state. Please don't forget that. Yes, Byron had a bad year at hybrid production. On a whole though, they do an excellent job if you look at the history. In 2013, they did some research with the hybrids. Nothing wrong with that because that's the way you learn and improve the hatchery system! Several states that produce hybrids keep their fry a different number of days than we do, before stocking them out in the ponds where they grow out to fingerlings. Byron wanted to evaluate this method to see if it would increase our production of hybrids. Simply put...It didn't. The fry that were held the number of days that other states use, were stocked into ponds at different hatcheries across the state, but when harvested, very few survived. This research was one of the main issues that reduced our hybrid production in 2013. The ODWC tried to learn from other states, but their methods failed and will not be used again. Live and learn, there is always a lesson, but you have to RISK for a REWARD.
Posted on Thursday Jul 25, 2013 at 11:25 AM  
Thanks for clarification Bill -- 2012 wasn't a particularly good year either -- Since I have lived in Oklahoma(13 years) I count five low production years if you compare to good years -- doesn't seem to be a real good batting average from my perspective - JMHO and like a piece of anatomy everyone has one -- Kicking ODWC in the Nads via a heavily trafficked website seems to be the only way the fishing public is really informed as to how and why production is low at hatcheries. I FULLY realize the time and effort spent to produce Morones, its much more labor intensive than any other fish with exception of Saugeye which had a terrific year !! Hybrid fishing in Oklahoma ranks in the top five in the nation - and that takes a lot of $$$$$ and effort to continue - The WHOLE Morones program now relies on procurement from one watershed right now - and with the likelyhood of Striped Bass exterpating from Keystone, and threats in Tulsa to spawning, I just want to be assured that we have a viable program in the future -- The Morones program (from the outside looking in) seems to be kept under a double secret rock, and any information that is given the angling public is sanitized on ODWC's website - Throw us a bone, tell us what is really going on - ask for money or help - its out there - Thanks for your efforts --
Those who would give up constitutional freedoms to elected officials in exchange for a false sense of security, deserve neither freedom or security.
Posted on Thursday Jul 25, 2013 at 3:19 PM  
Bill I hear you tried a different method and it did not work well. Want to say thanks for trying and like Tony says you got us in the top 5 in the nation so thanks. Kind of like OU winning ten games but they expect a national championship. That being said I would bet you guys will get us up to speed in #'s of stocked w/ hybrid fingerlings in the future. I like how you guys are thinking outside the box. The gamble did not pay off and I don't fault you all for your effort. Please keep stocking all the Morones possible. Also want to say the Keystone Striper population and down to Lower Illinois and Arkansas river system, was established with very low limits and that is one thing you guys have full control over. By the way just bought $2100 in sonar(due to your stocking efforts!) and paid well over $100 in Ok taxes. If state legislators were smart, they would pencil ODWC in on revenue, like MO and AR do!!!
Posted on Friday Jul 26, 2013 at 8:45 AM  
NCat, I thought you knew that the ODWC does not get any Oklahoma Tax money. All other state agencies do, but not us. We are funded soley from the sale of hunting and fishing licenses and matching money from the Federal government. Sorry, don't know where your $100 went! :-) I would be interested in knowing where you got your information on Oklahoma being in the top 5 for hybrid fishing? I could use that info to help justify their importance.
Posted on Friday Jul 26, 2013 at 12:54 PM  
Yea Bill knew that, maybe more like legislator voting you in, not penciling. Missouri has 1/8 percent sales tax share, don't know what it is in Arkansas. It would give you guys some well deserving funds, if they would send some tax money your way. ODWC is helping to produce the tax revenue and rightly deserves a share. MO and AR do it because it increases tax revenue, by improving and growing the outdoor segment, and our politicians need to realize that. There's better recreation than casinos. Maybe we could be like Kansas and have ODWC build a casino and use the profit soley for Morones.
Posted on Friday Jul 26, 2013 at 12:57 PM  
That was Tony's top five statistic. If he's wrong we're both going to jail.
Posted on Friday Jul 26, 2013 at 3:23 PM  
Coosa Spots!!! :)
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