want and waste
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Posted on Sunday Dec 9, 2012 at 12:27 AM  
Kurt, suppose it is legal to catch small crappie at Kaw and grind them up for catfish chum. I've never been a fan of using a sportfish for bait, to me that just doesn't respect sport and I know others beg to differ.

This takes that to a new level. It is kind of like baiting a coyote trap with a quail. No kidding this is what a guy I know doing, grinding up crappie for catfish chum. No hit on catfish, but come on.

It's not like the small crappie won't grow up in the lake or it is overrun with dinks. Easy fix for ODWC make a 10" minimum and maybe it is already, I haven't read the regs on it. Enhance the resource in Kaw, a slab lake for sure. The shorsightedness of a few outdoor people, amazes me sometimes.
Posted on Monday Dec 10, 2012 at 9:39 AM  
As long as the crappie were caught legally (rod & reel and not netted) the angler can do anything he/she chooses. If they choose to grind it up for bait instead of eating the crappie, they are legal to do so.

A 10" minimum length limit on a lake like Kaw will do no good. Research biologists from my office looked into a 10" length limit about 20 years ago and found it would do nothing to help/improve the crappie population on many lakes. Crappie grow fast and have consistent recruitment at Kaw, so a minimum length limit is useless. All it would be is more regulations for anglers to follow with no biological foundation...precisely the type of regulation that many of us ODWC people are trying to get OFF the books.
Posted on Monday Dec 10, 2012 at 10:46 AM  
Live crappie make excellent flathead bait...just sayin :)
Posted on Monday Dec 10, 2012 at 1:24 PM  
My last line in case you missed it in relation to Kaw crappie-"The shorsightedness of a few outdoor people, amazes me sometimes" KUK I guess they could bury them in the yard and call it fertlizer or leave 'em laying in the yard and call it predator bait, if they live in the country. Where's the conversavtion?
Posted on Monday Dec 10, 2012 at 2:22 PM  
Using them for bait is in no way wanton waste. I guess i do not see your angle on this. Now if the angler kept 37 crappie and tossed every one on the shore at the ramp, then they might be in violation.

The crappie population at Kaw is awesome and healthy. Any angler taking a daily limit does NOTHING to impact the population no matter what size they choose to keep. A good fisheries biologist (which Bill W is by the way) can interpret the data from this population by netting and instantly see that a minimum length limit is of no value to this population of fast growing fish.
Posted on Tuesday Dec 11, 2012 at 10:54 AM  
My angle on this is he is keeping fish that will be tablefare in less than one year, in a lake fully capable of getting them there. I can agree with taking undersized crappie from overpopulated water for catfish bait.

But in no way is this right, legal or not, to take sportfish and grind them up for chum to attract another sportfish. It would make a lot more sense to grind up filleted carcasses. He is keeping fish that will be something of great outdoor value with a reasonable degree of probability, that can easily be substituted with shad or other nonsportfish.

If you don't agree, write this up and show high quailty pictures of this in Outdoor Oklahoma and see how that is received. You wouldn't do it, because it does not promote conservation.
Posted on Tuesday Dec 11, 2012 at 12:32 PM  
I am not trying to be confrontational here, but I still think your personal view is not a valid arguement. What each angler does with their legal catch has NO BEARING on the health of a fish population. How would the population be any less impacted if this angler was eating those crappie instead of using them for chum/bait? That is the only way in which conservation is even remotely a part of this conversation...conservation of the crappie population in all of Kaw Lake. Not micro-managing the harvest and use after harvest of each single limit of 37 fish.

If your personal ethics/morals does not allow you to treat a catch of fish this way, fine. But why tread on some other angler's right to do as he/she pleases with legally caught fish? What gives you the moral high ground here? Who appointed you to decide what is or is not moral or within the broad description of "conservation"? Again, not being argumentative, just trying to state my side of the debate.

The role of ODWC is to conserve the state's wild resources. Nothing you have described places ODWC outside that obligation. We conserve the crappie fishery in Kaw just as we do with all other sportfisheries in the state: we use regulations to maximize the balance between angler harvest/usage and the long-term health of the population. The Kaw crappie population is not at risk of damage because an angler grinds up a few fish to bait catfish...which means the fishery is being properly conserved.
Posted on Tuesday Dec 11, 2012 at 1:30 PM  
I don't grind mine up! I hook them whole and let them swim around. I've seen times when the stripers and hybrids will hit them over a shad.
Posted on Tuesday Dec 11, 2012 at 1:53 PM  
I feel sorry for all them poor lively shad that guys are sticking in the eyes with those rusty old hooks. Then the sorry SOB's throw them out there amongst the predator fish just so they can get slammed by one. Then they yank the crap out of the line and rip the hook through that poor little shad's nose and just tear it apart. Then, when they are done fishing, they throw them out on the bank, or back in the water and pretty much kill every one of them! Reminds me of Finding Nemo
Posted on Tuesday Dec 11, 2012 at 2:56 PM  
NCat, you seem to be concerned that somebody is grinding up fish that might be tablefare in a year or so. It's a fish eat fish world, not counting those that end up on a platter, who's to say some bigger fish won't eat those small crappie anyway before they wind up on that platter?

Seems to be a mountain molehill deal here.
Posted on Tuesday Dec 11, 2012 at 3:49 PM  
How many of those little crappie when they grow up are caught, frozen, freezer burn and end up in the trash. Same goes for bass, catfish, stripers, hybrid, deer, ducks, etc, etc. The "always take a limit" mentality bugs me a lot more than some guy using legally caught gamefish for bait or chum.
Posted on Tuesday Dec 11, 2012 at 4:13 PM  
You're right slick.

I would like to see ODWC's booth on grinding up bass for chum, at the classic. Doesn't make sense to me, but it really doesn't have to. I generally don't fish for crappie and this does not affect me.

KUK, ODWC has employees that have a different opinion than you do. I do not think you all are off on the crappie limits necessarily, just food for thought. If someone wants to use crappie for holiday decorations, power to them. We live in an anthing goes world today.

When I was an 11 year old inner city kid in the early 70's and got to go squirrel hunting in the Bird Creek bottoms, I skinned and cooked my game. The good book says a lazy man does not roast his prey. I think we have an obilagtion to eat what is edible, for stewardship. I really like the honor many Native Americans give to their wildlife harvest, and their value of life taken. The older I get, the more I feel this way, so if you're young and don't feel the same, you may eventually.

Here's and idea I like to do, clean your freezer out spring and fall and give to someone. It makes room for a new harvest and helps others.

I will not condem this person and sorry if I have, but I do not like the law you oversee KUK, on this one. Some states have laws that are different, there is merit and reasoning on the other side.

I will say all outdoorsmen need to stick together and respect one anothers fish/game, or the anti's will win. We need to hang together or we will hang seperately.
Posted on Tuesday Dec 11, 2012 at 4:48 PM  
quote:

okoutdrsman Posted - 12/11/2012 : 1:30:43 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't grind mine up! I hook them whole and let them swim around. I've seen times when the stripers and hybrids will hit them over a shad.


Very interesting. This may be something definitely worth trying.
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Posted on Tuesday Dec 11, 2012 at 5:02 PM  
"I will say all outdoorsmen need to stick together and respect one anothers fish/game, or the anti's will win. We need to hang together or we will hang separately."


I think sticking together means not bashing someone for a perfectly legal practice. Let's stick together and worry about turning in the poachers. And, working to protect the privilege we have in being able to hunt and fish.
This whole thing reminds me of the topic where someone had a problem with using corn feeders on deer.
I for one have better things to do with my time..


Posted on Tuesday Dec 11, 2012 at 5:20 PM  
Other ODWC employees may have differing opinions, but I would challenge EVERY ONE OF THEM on the data...the facts about the Kaw crappie fishery. That is my job. I collect good, statistically valid data and use those data to best manage our resources. I am 100% a research scientist and the foundation of my work and the integrity I take in my education and profession demand that I challenge those (anglers, other ODWC employees, peers from other states, etc) who form opinions that run counter to the data/results.

In other words, everybody has an opinion, but I like to base my work in data and fact which allows me to construct an informed opinion. Sometimes that leads to conflict with other resource managers, sometimes that leads to conflict with license buyers. But that is part of my job as a scientist who performs research in a world of peer-review, critical examination of my projects, and results which must be defended with robust statistical validity and based on proven ecological principles. I am acclimated to people questioning my work and expertise, and accept those critiques as a way to make my work better and stronger.

Posted on Tuesday Dec 11, 2012 at 6:01 PM  
Well put, Kurt...

Posted on Wednesday Dec 12, 2012 at 8:37 AM  
Here is something that has not been mentioned in this thread. I suspect that this angler, who is using undersized Crappie for bait, is not catching them on a hook and line. I would suspect that he is catching them in a cast net which would make his practice illegal.
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Posted on Friday Dec 14, 2012 at 11:14 AM  
"I think sticking together means not bashing someone for a perfectly legal practice." End of Quote

If someone can't bring up a topic that affects the definition of a sportfish(and whether it should be used for bait) what can you say?
This reminds me some of the democrats,(not all of them) they say you're wrong for even bringing up a subject they disagree with and then they call you intolerant.

It stands to reason the catfishermen should respect the crappie guys and bass respect the striper guys and so forth. That is what I meant from hanging together. I brought this up to KUK because he represents the law on this.

Allowing sportfish to be used for bait has authorized this guy to use 70 or so crappie caught legally, from one of our states best lakes, that most likely would within a year, be a sport fish opportunity, even for a bank fisherman. I disagree with that law.

If you disagree with me, I respect your right to do so. So far, it is still a free country with freedom of speech. But the intolerant people are trying to change that. I think we can have a conversation without condeming one another and hang together.
Posted on Friday Dec 14, 2012 at 12:28 PM  
NCat:

I am going to weigh in on this for one reason; you don't seem to realize what you are attempting to do.

Here is a list of quotes from your inputs on this (the bold emphasis is mine):

"I've never been a fan of using a sportfish for bait, to me that just doesn't respect sport and I know others beg to differ."

"But in no way is this right, legal or not, to take sportfish and grind them up for chum to attract another sportfish."

"When I was an 11 year old inner city kid in the early 70's and got to go squirrel hunting in the Bird Creek bottoms, I skinned and cooked my game. The good book says a lazy man does not roast his prey. I think we have an obilagtion to eat what is edible, for stewardship. I really like the honor many Native Americans give to their wildlife harvest, and their value of life taken. The older I get, the more I feel this way, so if you're young and don't feel the same, you may eventually."

KuK presented you with facts on the legality of the issue citing data that supports his position. He made it clear that the conservation is in the setting of creel limits and that how the angler uses his catch is his business.

It appears to me that you would impose your personal fishing ethics on others based solely on your emotional response to the legal practice of another.

You are perfectly entitled to express your opinion - and this is the perfect place to do that. I would just like you to recognize that based on scientific data the practice you oppose has zero impact on the sport and your opposition is based on opinion and emotion only.

No one on this thread bashed you in the least for your opinion. You expressed your concerns and they were answered with facts. For you to view the exchange of ideas (a conversation has taken place) and the presentation of facts as intollerance is a bit difficult to understand.

Posted on Friday Dec 14, 2012 at 12:46 PM  
Well put Cal. Who knows, maybe the guys catfishing for Flatheads and could really give a rat's arse about sportfish! Leave them poor shad alone.
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